Curse

Esan · May 10, 2009, 08:13 PM // 20:13

The game is four years old. Nothing that is within the reach of mere mortals is truly rare any more. Given the choice of arguing +-5k or stashing/merching it, I'll pick the latter always. And only idiots try to buy things from other players.

Lyphen · May 10, 2009, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

The game is four years old. Nothing that is within the reach of mere mortals is truly rare any more. Given the choice of arguing +-5k or stashing/merching it, I'll pick the latter always. And only idiots try to buy things from other players.

Stupid general statements are for stupid people.

Martin Alvito · May 10, 2009, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boneyard Spleeneater

I feel like I waste a lot of time on the rare occasions I spam trade dealing with people who could've talked my price down and finished the transaction, or likewise could've bargained a bit on theirs. If they are offering for 10k and I say 7k, they could always come back with another value, or I could come back with one, but either way, people seen to be sticking firm to their prices, and I think that slows the trading down a lot.

OP, you have a selection effect here. I find that there are three ways to sell an item in this game:

1) Maximize the seller's informational advantage, and therefore the per-item profit. Insist that you make me a blind offer, I say yes or no.
2) The model in your post: price it at expected maximum, have a reserve.
3) Price it to move with a firm price known to be on the low end.

Approach #1 can make you a lot of money per transaction, but you have to invest a lot of time with the item before someone will make an error evaluating it and overpay. Approach #2 tends to sell items relatively swiftly at a profit as long as you purchased the item inexpensively. Approach #3 minimizes the time function.

Most of your power traders that hang out in Kamadan have low time prices. They're on a LOT and don't have other things that they do in-game. Any sample of trading interactions is therefore highly likely to draw on lots of interactions with this subset of players.

Approach #2 is better when you don't want to spend forever and a day in Kamadan. However, if you're consistently present to buy you might as well maximize the profit function per trade while you sell.

You rarely interact with sellers that follow approach #3 because the item disappears right away. You're stupid to negotiate with such a seller because someone else will offer full value. You get the item and the prospective windfall by reacting faster than other players to the sale announcement. Most players use approach #3, but the item is either sold at a private auction you don't know about (guildie, friend, etc.) or disappears immediately after posting, so you rarely talk to the player.

I generally use approach #2, but I have a high time price. Anyone that spends hours and hours in Kamadan daily would be stupid to use any approach other than #1. Since those players spend the most time in Kamadan, you are disproportionately likely to interact with one of those players when you trade.

magao · May 10, 2009, 09:48 PM // 21:48

I've actually done quite a bit of good negotiating. I've been buying minis recently, and whether or not the person advertises a price, I offer what I think is a low fair price. Sometimes the seller doesn't respond, but more often than not my price is either accepted, or the seller comes back with a counter-offer.

Often they quote prices in the minipet price thread (first post) in which case I respond with later posts that show the price is reducing for the particular mini.

If we can come to an agreement, excellent. Otherwise I wish them good luck in their selling (sincerely).

I only tend to sell in pre-Searing (runes, insignia), and I've got a bit of a reputation there for giving good items away and being trustworthy, so my prices tend to be accepted straight away ...

ajc2123 · May 10, 2009, 10:33 PM // 22:33

I guess it depends on your experience, since I'm always meeting people willing to bargain. I'll usually drop a couple K's of the price or be willing to trade instead of sell.

Normally its one of these two (Me selling)

WTS 50k
Ill buy for 30k
Too low sorry

or

WTS 50k
How about 40
47
44
Deal
ty
ty

Also when I buy things people are usually generous. I guess I meet the people who cant stand to trade in town so they lower prices lol.

Trader of Secrets · May 10, 2009, 10:40 PM // 22:40

I have also noticed somewhat of this. I try to avoid the question like "wats ur offer?", asking and answering. Sometimes i give an offer, and they dont even reply back, then i ask how much u want? and no reply.

Apollo Smile · May 10, 2009, 10:43 PM // 22:43

When somebody whispers you "Offer?" that just their way of saying "How much will I be able to rip you off?".

makosi · May 10, 2009, 10:46 PM // 22:46

When it comes to selling stuff in Kamadan I will always provide a price and if someone wants to barter with me then I'm happy to do so, within reason. I believe that it's worth selling stuff low just for the sake of converting storage-consuming items in to gold and the less time I spend in Kamadan results in more time spent actually playing.

Many people I have come across have stinking etiquette and bad techniques when it comes to selling:

-Assuming power, superiority and control because they own something of value.
-Insulting potential traders. "NO REPLY=NO THX," and "NO NOOB OFFERS."
-Putting current offers and buy-outs in the trade channel. Show me some proof and credentials please so I can rely on that 'info'?
-Asking for offers and then failing to reply, or replying with bad manners or lack of grace, when unsatisfied. The best way to prevent unwanted offers is to give a price.
-Asking for 100k+XXX. What's XXX? Moonshine, porn or an extremely ambigious price range?

..and buying:

-Undercutting by signifigant sums of gold. (power traders are notorius for this)
-Ignoring when dissatisfied. "No ty," or "I'll shop around a little," is enough.
-Insulting sellers for their prices.
-Saying "it's cheaper on guru." If so, buy it from guru.
-Offering crappy items in trade that are highly unlikely to please a random person.
-Pestering: "pls i rly rly need."

That's what I can think of right now.

Apollo Smile · May 10, 2009, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

When it comes to selling stuff in Kamadan I will always provide a price and if someone wants to barter with me then I'm happy to do so, within reason. I believe that it's worth selling stuff low just for the sake of converting storage-consuming items in to gold and the less time I spend in Kamadan results in more time spent actually playing.

Many people I have come across have stinking etiquette and bad techniques when it comes to selling:

-Assuming power, superiority and control because they own something of value.
-Insulting potential traders. "NO REPLY=NO THX," and "NO NOOB OFFERS."
-Putting current offers and buy-outs in the trade channel. Show me some proof and credentials please so I can rely on that 'info'?
-Asking for offers and then failing to reply, or replying with bad manners or lack of grace, when unsatisfied. The best way to prevent unwanted offers is to give a price.
-Asking for 100k+XXX. What's XXX? Moonshine, porn or an extremely ambigious price range?

..and buying:

-Undercutting by signifigant sums of gold. (power traders are notorius for this)
-Ignoring when dissatisfied. "No ty," or "I'll shop around a little," is enough.
-Insulting sellers for their prices.
-Saying "it's cheaper on guru." If so, buy it from guru.
-Offering crappy items in trade that are highly unlikely to please a random person.
-Pestering: "pls i rly rly need."

That's what I can think of right now.

Yeah. People holding "auctions" in town crack me up. Like it isn't obvious they aren't artificially adding "bids" to their item.

KrisNaga · May 10, 2009, 11:13 PM // 23:13

I don't negotiate because I see it as deceiving a potential customer. If I say im selling some unid golds for 4.4k then I won't ever lower the price because if I wanted less I would of asked for less. I was also selling some daggers the other day for 8k and this noob offered me 5k, they was end game daggers so I know there worth and I find it insulting when people offer lower that what there worth.
If people want to negotiate then that's there choice but I believe in selling at the price you stated.

makosi · May 10, 2009, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by KrisNaga

I don't negotiate because I see it as deceiving a potential customer. If I say im selling some unid golds for 4.4k then I won't ever lower the price because if I wanted less I would of asked for less. I was also selling some daggers the other day for 8k and this noob offered me 5k, they was end game daggers so I know there worth and I find it insulting when people offer lower that what there worth.
If people want to negotiate then that's there choice but I believe in selling at the price you stated.

"A stock is worth what someone is willing to pay for it"

You must be blessed with the gift of time because in this day and age it is hard to sell anything... especially daggers and especially greens. I'm pleased when I can sell anything like that for whatever price because it means I have more gold than before, more storage room and I can spend more time playing or go to the kitchen and eat some cake.

Evil Neato · May 10, 2009, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Trading in GW is retarded. If you want to buy something, someone says offer. You send them an offer, and if it isn't what they wanted, they don't even respond at all. They don't say yes, they don't say no, just nothing.

Even if you ask "how much do you want?" they still just say "offer?" and the process is repeated when they don't hear the price they want. There's no "no thanks" or "I want more" or anything, just complete silence.

It's very rude to say the least.

Not to mention you have to trade for hours just to buy or sell something just because people are like this.

Improvavel · May 11, 2009, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Well, internet lacks the human reactions that u can read in real life - its a lot easier to negotiate when you can see and hear the other people reactions and expressions.

If you look, most sales on internet are either at fixed prices or auctions.

And in real life you don't negotiate with the folks on big chain supermarkets cause they aren't the owners and have no power to change the price. What you do in those cases, is instead of spending time negotiating, you do a survey of all supermarkets and buy at the place with the cheapest offering for that product. In the beginning takes time, but if you had 2 or 3 people doing this at the same time you can keep tabs on the best prices and save some decent amount.

Personally, I just use the guru auctions. Its just fast and requires very little time. Occasionally I buy/sell in game when I seed good bargains. Its generally at a fixed price - I just have a look when I enter the outpost and I'm generally en route to somewhere else so I don't want to spend much time negotiating.

Boneyard Spleeneater · May 11, 2009, 06:04 AM // 06:04

I guess the difference is some tings have a fixed price, and some are up for negotiation, and people respond differently.

If I am selling unid golds, I will probably sell them for a fixed price from a mule on a different computer while I play. If I am selling something that has a specific place where it is in demand, and the value is a little more flexible, then I will price it at the max I see it moving for, and hope for the best. I always am looking to move things though.

Frankly, I often look for WTB, since I can tell right away if anyone will take the offer or not. Still, a little give and take would be nice, and would grease the wheels of the economy a bit. That would allow me to ditch the mods I don't need, and get the ones I do.

superraptors · May 11, 2009, 06:16 AM // 06:16

i honestly think that negotiating is stupid, wastes times and theres a chance u wont get what your looking for

when people sell stuff they should just sell for there reserve price for less hassle

when buying people should stop being a pain in the ass trying to budge 1 or 2k on miniscule things like elite tome for 1k more or 2k w/e , its under standable to try talk them down on items worth well over 100k but other than that i wouldnt bother wasting time
________
Lada Niva

Martin Alvito · May 11, 2009, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Superraptors, you put a high value on your time. Not everyone else does.

You can: Time -> in-game cash and in-game cash -> time (eg: buying a run)

Most traders in Kamadan are there to trade their time for in-game cash. This is perfectly rational behavior for a given set of preferences. Those preferences may not be yours, but that does not make these players stupid.

pumpkin pie · May 11, 2009, 06:26 AM // 06:26

this discussion won't take place if there's a marketplace

Martin Alvito · May 11, 2009, 06:35 AM // 06:35

True statement if and only if said marketplace is the only way to transfer items from player to player.

Otherwise, let me assure you that no intelligent player would sell an ultra-rare item through such a system. Then the discussion simply changes to: "Why are all the sellers of mini Kanaxais so rude?!? Why won't they use the marketplace like everyone else?!?"

afya · May 11, 2009, 07:00 AM // 07:00

usually set a price range for myself. i offer a price, the guy dont like it. ask him make the offer. out of range, bb

cataphract · May 11, 2009, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apollo Smile

I'm usually very fair with my prices. I don't even respond to people who try to lowball my already cheaper prices.

This.

When I say I want 7k for an Elite Monk Tome I don't mean "I want 3k" or "4k and some purple crap".